如果从这种角度来看的话，我们说区块链是继互联网之后最伟大的发明、最重要的创新，其实并不是一种狂热的说法？

我前阵子遇到过一个团队，他们甚至都不知道要做什么项目，然后就跑来问我：我该怎么才能ico？我一直劝他不要ico，然后三个月过去了，他们已经着手开始设计token模型了。这是区块链看起来比较糟糕的一面，对吧，一大堆根本不懂比特币和区块链的人，现在都想把自己的项目ico，从中赚一笔横财。这肯定是不work的。那好的方面是什么呢？就是最后那些不管怎样work了的项目。因为区块链就是一种创新，创新肯定会被懂的人利用创造出更有价值的东西。

I met a team a few days ago, and they didn't even know what to do, and they came and asked me, "How can I do it?" I kept telling him not to do it, and then three months later, they started to design the Token model. This is the worse side of the block chain, right, and a whole bunch of people who don't know anything about Bitcoin and the block chain now want to make money out of it. That's definitely not working. That's not working. What's the good side?

我认为中本聪解决了一个人类之前无法解决的问题：人的治理。

I believe that China has solved a problem that could not be solved before humanity: human governance.

你怎么去组织一个庞大的人群，怎么管理这些人，让他们彼此能达到最好？

How do you organize a huge crowd, how do you manage these people so that they can get to the best of each other?

人类简史里面告诉我们一个道理，世间万物都是故事。钱是一个故事、宗教是一个故事、银行是一个故事、国家是一个故事、公司是一个故事等等。如果从明天开始我们都不相信这些故事，那这些东西本身就不会存在。所以，人类本质上就是一只会讲故事的猴子而已。但通过故事，我们可以把所有的人群都组织起来，这一点最终帮助我们成为了地球上最厉害的物种。

One thing tells us in the brief history of humanity is that everything in the world is a story. Money is a story, religion is a story, banks is a story, countries are a story, companies are a story, and so on. If we don't believe in these stories from tomorrow, these things will not exist in themselves. So, human beings are essentially monkeys who only tell stories.

我们是地球上唯一可以打破地域限制和血缘限制来联合陌生人进行协作的生物。蚂蚁蜜蜂只能在小圈子里协作起来。但我们可以通过一个共同的故事，让5000个人相信我们都是基督教、让5000个人相信我们都是美国人，从而让这5000人拥有相似的行为和动作。这些故事最终让我们可以创造出不同的网络。钱是一个网络、美国是一个网络、社区是一个网络等等。

We are the only creatures on Earth that can work together with strangers by breaking geographical and blood limits. Antbees can only work together in small circles. But through a common story, we can make 5,000 people believe that we are all Christians, 5,000 people believe that we are all Americans, so that 5,000 people have similar behaviors and movements.

但问题是，你怎么去运行这些网络？你怎么管理网络，怎么治理网络里的人员，怎么决定这个网络应该由谁来负责？

But the question is, how do you run these networks? How do you manage them, how do you govern them, and how do you decide who should be responsible for them?

对于这些问题，历史给出的答案看起来好像都并不完美。其中有一个答案是，让我们选出一个人来当国王当皇帝，赋予这个人至高无上的权力，让他发号施令，告诉剩下所有人应该怎么办；还有一个答案是，让我们找出一群上流的社会精英，让这群社会精英告诉我们应该做点什么。这群精英可能是“美国药物管理协会”、可能是“新闻”、可能是“大学教育系统”、可能是“国会”等等，由精英们负责告诉我们在社会里应该这样生活，哪些事能做、哪些事不能做；还有一个答案是一人一票的民主方式，它可能是“暴民政治”、是“法国革命”、是“人民大众”。所有这些答案，在某些情况下都可以运行得不错，但最后都会难免发生“公地悲剧”，产生腐败、欺骗、权利勾结等等。

One of the answers is that let us choose a person to be king, give him the supreme power, give him the command and tell everyone what to do; the other is that let us find a group of elites who are high-class, and let the elites tell us what to do. These elites may be “American drug management associations”, “news”, “university education systems”, “congregations” and so on, and that the elites are responsible for telling us what to do in society, what to do and what not to do; and the other answer is that one-vote democracy, which may be “mob politics”, the “French revolution” and the “people at large.” All these answers, in some cases, work well, but in the end it is difficult to avoid “public tragedies”, corruption, deception, power collusion and so on.

核心的问题是：人类应该怎么组织和管理？你怎么治理网络、怎么为群体做决定？

The question at the heart of is: How should humanity organize and manage? How do you govern networks and decide for groups?

中本聪想出来的办法是一种开放式的系统，更贴近民主的那套玩法，但这个开放系统同时又是基于按劳分配、任人唯贤的机制，它是根据个人对整个网络的贡献值来进行调整的。

An open system, closer to that of democracy, was conceived as an open system, but at the same time it was based on a merit-based, merit-based mechanism that was adjusted to the value of the individual's contribution to the network as a whole.

比如，在比特币里，矿工贡献的是算力的大小，这也是矿工获得比特币奖励的最主要的贡献依据。

In Bitcoin, for example, miners contribute the size of their numeracy, which is the primary basis for the miners to receive a bitcoin reward.

所以，区块链这套新的方法，解决的是人类非常基础的问题，它是人类基本问题的一次全新的突破。

So the new approach of block chains is to solve the very basic problems of humanity, and it is a new breakthrough in the fundamental problems of humanity.

市场是世界上最强大的网络，它同时也是根据每个人的贡献值调整奖励大小的系统。中本聪的突破，是把市场的力量和计算机网络结合起来。中本聪在计算机网络里塞进了一个市场。从计算机网络出发，最终我们又会慢慢回归到人类物理世界的网络。所以，这是一种全新的、完全不同的组织人类的基本方式。Again，它解决的是人类社会非常非常基础的问题。

The market is the most powerful network in the world , and it is also a system that adjusts the amount of incentives according to the value of each person's contribution. The breakthrough is to combine the power of the market with the network of computers.

从五万七千年前的人类文明开始，我们到今天终于有了另一种对人类进行组织管理的新方式，借助计算机的方式。所以，我很开心自己身处于这样一个建造新的组织方法的历史节点里。 这是人类的基本问题。

Starting with the human civilization of 57,000 years ago, we finally have another new way of organizing and managing humankind, using computers. So, I'm happy to be in this historic node of building new organizational methods. This is the basic problem for humanity.

那么，如果解决这个非常基础的问题的前提，是必须让每个人都稍微有点贪念、觉得自己能够从中赚到钱、变得投机一些，好让大家都能上船，那挺好的，我觉得这个代价是完全可以接受的，让我们直接开始这么干吧！（笑）

Well, if the premise for solving this very basic problem is that everyone must feel a little greedy, feel that they can make money from it, become more speculative, so that everyone can get on board, it's good. I think the price is perfectly acceptable. Let's just do it.

钱正在把所有人都往区块链里面推。但其实我们正在创造一个比我们自身要大多的东西。当然，也比钱要大得多。

Money is pushing everyone into the block chain. But we're actually creating something much bigger than ourselves. Of course, it's much bigger than money.

嗯……我觉得我们可能对 token 代币这部分东西有点过于狂热了。我们可能高估了 token 的部分，但是又低估了去中心化的决策机制的部分。

Well, I think we might be a little overzealous about the token tokens. We may overestimate the token, but we underestimate the decentralised decision-making mechanisms.

去中心化是关键。

我希望我们都能回想一下互联网刚开始出现的那个阶段。当然在座的很多人可能当时还没出生。

I want us all to think back about the beginning of the Internet. Of course, a lot of people here might not have been born yet.

我记得在90年代，我第一次看到互联网真正开始流行起来的时候，浏览器和各种网站出现，我脑子里的想法是：卧槽，世界要大变！互联网肯定会改变世界上所有的东西！我们将不再拥有任何的中介、中间商，很多事情都不会再有瓶颈和限制。

I remember when, for the first time in the 1990s, I saw the Internet really getting popular, the browsers and the web sites appeared, and the idea in my head was: fuck, the world is changing. The Internet will definitely change everything in the world. We will no longer have any intermediaries, middlemen, and there will be no bottlenecks or restrictions on many things.

这些东西都是我当时可以预想到的。

These things were all I could have foreseen at the time.

但我完全没想到的是，原来我们在互联网上还会产生另一堆新的“地主”。这群地主是 Google、Facebook、亚马逊、Twitter等等。他们抢占了我们所有的数据。每个地主都为用户建造了一座专属的小监狱。这当然是个很棒的系统（笑）。我说认真的，这套系统肯定是要比之前那套来得好，对吧？

But what I didn't think of at all was that we would have created a new landowner on the Internet. The landlords were Google, Facebook, Amazon, Twitter, and so on. They took all our data. Each landlord built a unique little prison for its users. This is certainly a great system. Seriously, the system must be better than the previous one, right?

相比纽约新闻、华盛顿日报代表着“信息”的绝对权威和绝对正确，互联网这套系统肯定是进步的。互联网已经更民主了。但你看看Spotify、Soundcloud这样的公司，你会发现，权力集中在这些中介身上后仍然是难以想象的。这些中介拥有的权力实在是太大了。权力集中已经大到，整个结构是非常脆弱的，像一层薄冰。

The Internet is much more democratic. But looking at companies like Spotify, Soundcloud, you can see that power is still unimaginable when it is concentrated on these intermediaries. The power of these intermediaries is far too great. The concentration of power is so large that the structure is so fragile, like a thin layer of ice.

如果十年前我告诉你，10年后全世界所有的出租车加起来，只会有一家运营公司统一负责管理，你肯定会觉得我脑子坏了。但是今天，这样的事情正在发生（这家公司就是滴滴，或者uber）。这个版本的世界已经在慢慢成型了。

If I told you 10 years ago that 10 years later all the world's taxis together would only be managed by a single operating company, you'd think I'd be out of my mind. But today, something like this is happening (this company is dripping, or uber). This version of the world is slowly taking shape.

但我觉得我们很幸运。区块链是这个世界的一次偏差。

But I think we're lucky. The block chain is a deviation from the world.

很长一段时间我对互联网有点丧失信心，因为这些地主建造一座座监狱、它们围起来的高墙，它们手里的资源和能力垄断了整个市场。但我们希望互联网应该是更平权、更民主的。为什么互联网最终会变成现在这个样子？我认为原因是互联网在底层协议上，它的设计一开始就是不完善的，最终就产生了“公地悲剧”的问题，也就是说，每个人都可以很方便地使用这块公地，但与此同时，每个人也都可以肆无忌惮地破坏公地、为所欲为，最后公地就被毁了。

For a long time, I lost faith in the Internet, because the landlords built a prison, the walls they surrounded, and the resources and capabilities they had that monopolized the market. But we wanted the Internet to be more egalitarian and democratic. Why would the Internet end up like this?

但通过区块链，我们正在建造的协议是一个懂得分配资源的协议。这个协议会说，你不能这么无限制的使用服务器资源、或者是互联网的带宽资源，你不能这么免费地使用公共资源，你必须支付一定的成本去获取这些算力和带宽，你必须为这个系统做出一定的贡献。我们后面可能会看到电力清洁能源网络、自动驾驶网络这样的东西出现。这些网络完全由机器和算法来进行操作，通过区块链统一管理调度。区块链就是这些网络的管理员。它是去中心化的。

But the agreement that we are building through the block chain is an agreement that knows how to allocate resources. The agreement says that you can't use server resources in such an unlimited way, or the bandwidth of the Internet, you can't use public resources in such a free manner, you have to pay a certain cost to get these algorithms and bandwidths, and you have to make a certain contribution to the system. We may see that things like electricity clean energy networks, autopilot networks, and so on. These networks are operated entirely by machines and algorithms, and they are managed centrally through the block chain. The block chain is the administrator of these networks.

我们现在正处于互联网转型的过程。互联网从很多庞大的中介，转变成少数几个小一点的中介，到最终完全没有中介。互联网会变成一个巨大的网格网络。人们存储的所有文件、公路上的自动驾驶汽车，所有的东西都会通过这个巨大的网格网络控制。

We are now in the process of transforming the Internet from a lot of big intermediaries, to a few smaller ones, to a total absence of intermediaries. The Internet will become a huge network of grids. All the files people store, auto-drive cars on the highway, everything will be controlled through this huge network.

所以，再重申一遍，作为人类，我们正在创造一个比我们自身大得多的东西。这个东西就是如何管理我们人类自己。我不想把对话延伸到ai领域，因为我觉得ai跟人类不处在同一个意识水平上，但这确实是我们发展过程中的一个突发特性。互联网的基础架构，正在重新朝着互联网诞生之初的去中心化的理念和方向进行调整。去中心化在我看来是非常强大的一个东西。

So, again, as human beings, we're creating something much bigger than ourselves. That's how we manage ourselves. I don't want to extend the dialogue to ai, because I think that's not at the same level of consciousness as humans, but it's a sudden feature of our development. The Internet infrastructure is re-orientating towards the idea and direction of decentralization at the beginning of the Internet. Decentralization is something that seems very powerful to me.

那去中心化有没有可能失败？比如20年后我们还是没有去中心化，会是什么原因？以及，为什么去中心化对我们这么重要？

Is there any chance that decentralisation could fail? Like 20 years from now, we still haven't been decentralised. And why is it so important to us?

有没有可能失败，我觉得，这次最不同的地方是，我们把钱和技术绑在一起了。所以，这里面产生的激励是非常非常强大的。

There's no chance of failure, and I think the most different part of this time is that we tied up the money and technology. So, the incentive that comes out of it is very, very powerful.

如果你想发送一条信息让全世界的人都能看到，很简单，在这条信息上附上一笔钱作为激励，围绕这条信息创造一个小型的经济系统，让人们的生活因此变得更好，这样人们就有动力去接收甚至是主动搜索这条信息了。区块链是一个强大的传播向量，可以把信息带到任何你想让它去的地方。

If you want to send a message for the world to see, it's simple, to attach money to it as an incentive to create a small economic system around it, and to make people's lives better, so that people have the incentive to receive it, even actively. The block chain is a powerful vector that can take it anywhere you want it to go.

这也是为什么我在上一个 Pannel 说区块链应该有一些应用案例跑出来。因为，最终钱还是会流向实际的应用场景与应用功效。钱流动的终点是应用，或者应用资源的分配。

And that's why I said in the last Pannel that there should be some applications in the block chain. because, ultimately, money goes to actual applications and applications. The end point of the money flow is the application, or the allocation of resources.

另一个可能失败的地方，应该来源于现有的利益集团的阻力。他们不会那么轻易把之前的权力和利益释放出来的，他们肯定会对这项技术进行干扰和阻碍。如果你是一个国王、是上层的精英阶层、是一家巨头公司、是监管者、是政府，你肯定不会喜欢区块链正在发生的一切。

Another potential failure should come from the resistance of existing interests. They will not so easily release the former powers and interests, and they will certainly disrupt and block the technology. If you are a king, an elite, a giant company, a regulator, and a government, you will certainly not like what is happening in the chain of blocks.

区块链是为普通人赋能，不是为国王与权贵赋能。任何既得利益者、任何拥有特权的人、在任何领域拥有优先使用某些资源的人——听起来现在在台下坐着的人好像大部分都是（笑），聚在这个会场里的我们，应该都是某种意义上的“特权阶层”——这些人都在朝着一个基于市场的、按贡献值进行奖励分配的系统走。所以，如果你觉得因为你的学历、你的出身、你的人脉、你的家庭，或者是其他某种原因，可以让你一直永远占据着既得利益者的特权位置，那你就大错特错了。因为区块链会改变这一切。我觉得监管者和立法者接下来可能会有一段非常漫长难熬的时间。

The chain of blocks is for ordinary people, not for kings and dignitaries. Any vested interest, any privileged person, any person with priority in any field of resources — it sounds as if most of the people sitting under the stage are (laughter) and we are in this room — in a sense “privileged” — these people are heading towards a market-based system of reward allocations based on value. , so if you think that your education, your origins, your connections, your family, or some other reason can keep you in the privileged position of those who have a vested interest forever, you're wrong. because the chain of districts will change all of this. I think it may be a very long time for regulators and legislators to follow.

那么，怎么突破既得利益者的阻碍呢？

How, then, is it possible to break through the obstructions of vested interests?

比较乐观的一点是：创新发生的速度往往是非常快速的，快到我们所有人都没办法反应过来。

The more optimistic thing about "strange" is that innovation often occurs very quickly, so fast that none of us can react.

至于你问我，为什么去中心化很重要？我觉得有很多原因，但我只聊最重要的三条：

As far as you're concerned, why is centralization important? I think there's a lot of reasons, but I'm only talking about the three most important ones:

这点是超级有价值的。我知道很多人可能对这个事情没有感受，但是我们生活在一个被全面监视的社会里，这是一个非常可怕的事情。美国国家安全局在监视者你、Google在监视着你、Facebook在监视着你，它们不止掌握着你的ID，它们还把你锁在自己的产品里。你如果要更换其他产品使用，这个切换成本是非常大的，大到你几乎没办法离开，你甚至都没办法找到其他的可替换方式。

This is super valuable. I know a lot of people may not feel it, but it's a terrible thing that we live in a society that is under full surveillance. The NSA is watching you, Google, and Facebook. They're watching you. They're not just holding your ID, they're locking you in your product.

Google不止是最大的搜索引擎还是最大的广告平台，Facebook不止是最大的社交网络也是最大的广告平台，其他创业公司做出了不同的产品想要和这些巨头竞争，但是因为它们没办法在广告平台上打广告，它们很难获得新的用户，没有新的用户就没有数据，更加没办法竞争，所以Google、Facebook就把用户牢牢锁在了自己的产品里。

Google is not just the largest search engine or the largest advertising platform, Facebook is not only the largest social network and the largest advertising platform, and other start-up companies have made different products to compete with these giants, but because they cannot advertise on advertising platforms, they have difficulty accessing new users, they have no new users, they have no data, and they are less able to compete, so Google and Facebook lock users in their own products.

所以我认为，掌握自己的ID和数据是我们迈向个人自由的一大步。这点的重要性已经上升到了人类自由的级别上。

So I think that mastering our IDs and data is a big step forward in our personal freedom. The importance of this has risen to the level of human freedom.

这个也很重要。美国的朋友可能感受不到，但对于那些生活在其他国家的人，他们国家的货币可能贬值到一文不值，他们国家规定他们能说什么而不能说什么，抗审查对他们来说是非常重要的。Youtube和Twitter把中东地区的政府监管全面打倒了，当然我会说，Youtube和Twitter也把美国人民的政府监管全面打倒了（笑）。

This is also important. America’s friends may not feel it, but for those living in other countries, their country’s currency may be devalued to nothing, their country dictates what they can’t say, and it is very important for them to resist censorship.

我们在左派川普和右派伯尼·桑德斯身上看到的，美国大众起义打败美国精英的选举结果，这个结果很明显，这件事在以前的美国政治史上是永远不会发生的，没有社交媒体的助推或者众筹，我们不可能看到这样的美国大选。而且我认为，从现在开始，我们再也不会看到美国大选选出一个精英总统。我们再也不会看到下一个布什、下一个克林顿，从今往后，我们拥有的都只会是川普和伯尼·桑德斯。

And I think that we will never see the election of an elite president from now on. We will never see the next Bush, the next Clinton, and from now on we will have nothing more than Trump and Bernie Sanders.

因为现在所有的美国大选，本质上都只关乎这个人在社交媒体上是否流行。这件事就是像听起来这么恐怖。美国政治已经是一场完全由社交媒体在导演的节目而已。它是去中心化的。在这个例子里，去中心化把赛场变成了另一个地方，它让更多元化的声音可以被听到，它同时也是一种抗审查的机制。

Because all American elections are now essentially about whether or not this person is popular in social media. That's what it sounds like. American politics is already a programme that is entirely directed by social media. It's decentralized. In this example, decentralizing turns the arena into another place, allowing a more diverse voice to be heard, and it's also a counter-censorship mechanism.

这三个原因彼此之间是强相关的，三个原因其实都在说一个问题，开放。

These three reasons are strongly related to each other, and all three are actually talking about an issue and openness.

互联网跟之前出现的其他计算机网络有什么区别？为什么最后是互联网胜出了？

What is the difference between the Internet and other computer networks that have appeared before it? Why does the Internet finally win?

很简单，因为只有它是完全开放的。

It's simple, because it's only completely open.

open data，开放数据，为什么很重要？

Open data, open data. Why is it important?

因为如果没有开放数据，我们就回到了以前的时代。只有某一个国王允许你创新你才能进行创新，只有某一个大公司告诉你能够做什么样的产品你才能做什么样的产品。没有允许就不能创新。

Because if we don't open up the data, we're back to the old days. Only one king will allow you to innovate, and only one big company will tell you what you can do. You can't innovate without permission.

但所有伟大的创新，本质上都是从一小撮年轻人肆无忌惮的打破规则开始的。而所有掌权的老人都是不喜欢这些年轻人的。老人不喜欢年轻人到处打破规则，所以他们会压制年轻人。

But all the great innovations begin with a bunch of young people who break the rules without fear. All the old people in power don't like them. Older people don't like young people breaking the rules, so they suppress young people.

就像俗话说的，科学每发生一场葬礼就进步一次。这绝对是正确的。科技也是每发生一场葬礼就进步一次。商业每发生一场葬礼就进步一次。整个人类每发生一场葬礼就进步一次。之前掌权的老人们必须死去，然后我们才能产生一个新的系统。这一切要发生，年轻人就必须拥有尝试各种东西、尝试各种创新的机会，在一个不需要批准的自由环境里。它必须是一个去中心化的开放系统。所以我们应该把一切都去中心化。但这并不意味着我们会不受限制。在某些特定的领域，你永远会受限于某些自然的网络效应。

As the saying goes, science progresses every funeral. That's absolutely right. technology also progresses every funeral. Business progresses every funeral. The whole human race progresses every funeral. The old people who came to power before

你觉得什么东西是最需要去中心化的？如果有一些很关键的部分是必须去中心化的，你觉得会是什么？

What do you think is most necessary to centralize? What do you think would be if some of the key parts were to be centralized?

这是个好问题。我之前没怎么想过这个问题。

That's a good question. I didn't think about it before.

我觉得，钱就是一个非常重要的部分。钱必须去中心化。对吧。这也是比特币一开始出现的原因；然后，ID也是一个很重要的必须去中心化的东西。你们（blockstack）就是在做这个事情；然后，数据也是一个很关键的部分，比如像filecoin。

I think money is a very important part. Money has to be centralized. Right. That's why Bitcoin first appeared; then ID is also a very important part of what has to be centralized. That's what you guys are doing; and then data is a crucial part, like filecoin.

但是这些更像是一种元数据对吧，它们是非常基础的组成部分。如果从应用层面来看呢？

But these are more like metadata, right? They're very basic. What if they're at the application level?

那我会希望看到更多社交媒体去中心化。比现在的twitter再更进一步，更去中心化一点。当然，这纯粹是从人性角度来说的，从投资者的角度来看，这不一定是个好主意，我可能不会去投资这样的产品，哈哈。

Then I'd like to see more social media go down the center. More than this twitter, more central. Of course, it's purely human, it's not necessarily a good idea from an investor's point of view, and I probably wouldn't invest in that product, huh?

但是从人性的角度出发，我不希望我的孩子用Twitter或者Facebook。我不希望他们囚禁在这些巨头公司的牢笼里。Twitter和Facebook是“信息”的垄断者。它们非常长命。我们创造出了它们，只有等到一个新的计算平台转移浪潮来临，才有可能把这些长命的垄断者替换掉。区块链提供了这样一个平台转换的机会。

But from a human point of view, I do not want my children to use Twitter or Facebook. I do not want them to be locked up in the cages of these giant corporations. Twitter and Facebook are monopolies of “information.” They are very long-lived. We create them, and it is possible to replace these long-lived monopolies only when a new computing platform moves.

社交网络是挺重要的。如果你做了一个去中心化的Twttter，去中心化的微博，不见得一定会有用户去用，因为这些产品有很重的网络效应。但在某一些国家和地区里，总会有一小戳的人，他们会担忧自己能说什么、不能说什么，或者在现在的Twitter不允许他们谈论某些话题，否则他们可能会因此丢掉性命，我不知道，但总有一些原因会产生一些应用场景。技术出现的并不一定是好的东西。在互联网刚出来的时候，上面也有很多不光彩的内容。这是技术必经的一个阶段。然后积极的东西可能才会出现。

Social networking is important. If you do a decentralised Twttter, a decentralized microblogging, it doesn’t necessarily have users, because these products have a heavy network effect. But in some countries and regions, there's always a small amount of people who worry about what they can say, can’t say, or if Twitter doesn’t allow them to talk about certain topics, they may lose their lives, I don’t know, but there are reasons why some applications can happen.

在应用层面上，我觉得是很难做预测的。可能你做一个去中心化版的PG&E也不错，一个去中心化的天然气和电力的网络网格系统。如果我们每个人都能拥有一部分的电力，不用通过电力公司进行垄断的话不是很好吗？

At the application level, I think it's hard to predict. Maybe it's nice for you to do a decentralised version of the PG&E, a decentralised grid system of natural gas and electricity. Wouldn't it be nice if we each had a share of the electricity, without monopolizing it through electricity companies?

能源的使用历史，很大程度上就是人类的发展历史。作为人类，我们从大自然环境里获取越来越多的能源，供自己使用。人类是能源的消耗者。所以，如果我们能创造一个去中心化的能源网络，让这个网络通过机器和算法以更合理的方式分配能源，那整个人类群体肯定会利用能源产生更多的创新。

The history of the use of `strong' energy is, to a large extent, the history of human development. As human beings, we are acquiring more and more energy from the larger natural environment for our own use. Human beings are the consumers of energy. So if we can create a decentralised energy network that distributes energy more rationally through machinery and algorithms, then the entire human community will certainly use energy to generate more innovation.

我们现在有comcast、at&t、version这些通讯公司，如果我们每个人能在家里插上一个Wi-Fi传输器，然后把信号广播到天空去，然后我们可以通过wifi币来获得收益，不是也很棒吗。这样你可以不受运营商设定的带宽限制。

We have commast, att &t, version, if each of us can plug a Wi-Fi transmitter into our home and then broadcast the signal to the sky, and then we can get the money through wifi, and it's great. So you don't have the bandwidth set by the operator.

可能在伊朗这样的地区，还会产生去中心化的匿名网络。总之，在应用层，我其实很难进行预测。这有点像1992年让我坐在台上说，http已经被组建出来了，你觉得有什么app最后会取得成功？任何你预测的东西肯定都是错的。

There may also be decentralized anonymous networks in areas like Iran. In short, at the application level, it is difficult for me to predict. It's kind of like when I sat on the stage in 1992 and said, "http has been formed, what do you think is going to work? Anything you predict is wrong.

总是出现某个新的东西来颠覆我们的认知的。这甚至都不是个替代游戏。重点不在于你要如何替代掉现有的服务、产品和公司。肯定是完全想不到的、全新的东西的出现。

There's always something new to turn our minds around. It's not even an alternative game. The point is not how you're going to replace existing services, products and companies. It's definitely something completely unexpected, completely new.

可能更好的一个提问方式，不是你觉得人们需要什么新的应用，而是你自己个人最想要什么样的应用？

Perhaps a better way of asking questions is not what new applications do you think people need, but what kind of applications do you personally want most?

我想要自由的媒体。我真的很想拥有自由的媒体。我觉得自由的媒体很重要。即使有些东西你不愿意听到，但我认为每个人都有说话的权利。

I want a free media. I really want a free media. I think a free media is important. Even if there is something you don't want to hear, I think everyone has the right to speak.

未来肯定会有一天，地球上的任何一个人，都可以自由无阻碍地触达到另一个人。当然，这对我们现有的社会结构来说会是一个很大的挑战。当每个人都可以在社交媒体上自由地说上两句话的时候，你应该怎么去判定谁在说真话、谁在说假话。社会整体的结构会不断去适应这种变化。

The future will surely come one day when any person on Earth can reach another without hindrance. Of course, it will be a great challenge to our existing social fabric. When everyone is free to say two words on social media, how do you judge who is telling the truth and who is lying?

微博、twitter和facebook的出现，已经让很大一群人都快发疯了，因为以前的人们很难适应社交媒体。以前你在一个小村落里生活，你每天能接触到的人、全村可能就两百人，但现在在微博和twitter上，70亿人生活遇到的问题会突然一下子全部曝光在你面前。你要面对70亿人的烦恼，这会让很多人发疯受不了的。我们很多人还没适应这种情况。

The advent of microblogging, twitter, and Facebook has caused a large group of people to go crazy, because it was hard for former people to adapt to social media. Before you lived in a small village, where you could reach 200 people every day, but now, on Twitter and twitter, 7 billion people live with problems that suddenly come to light.

但我觉得，我们的孩子，下一代的小朋友他们会解决这个问题，他们会适应这种新的社交媒体。我们的孩子会用另一种我们完全无法理解、完全无法想象的方式来使用新的媒体。就像以前父母看我们使用电脑和手机那样。现在有很多年轻人在玩snapchat，那个app我完全不知道怎么玩，所以从这一点来说，我确实也已经老了。

But I think that our children, our next generation of children, will solve this problem and they will adapt to this new social media. Our children will use the new media in another way that we can't understand and can't imagine at all.

所以你觉得十年二十年后，我们的社会会跟现在变得完全不一样？

So you think in 10 or 20 years, our society will be completely different than it is now?

我觉得是这样的。社会跟随技术的脚步而发展。技术总是比社会更快一步。山顶洞人的组织方式跟现代人类的组织方式肯定是非常不一样的。技术让我们能够重新组织社会的结构。

I think so. Society follows the pace of technology. Technology is always a step faster than society. The way the cavemen are organized is certainly very different from the way modern humans are organized. The technology of allows us to reorganize the fabric of society.

At this stage, , China’s approach to encrypted currency is, in the first place, inclined to discourage or control the development of encrypted currency, because they do not want domestic capital to be lost abroad, but soon they will see the potential and value of the chain, and China will say that the chain may be the next gold mine, possibly the next reserve currency, and that it will certainly replace the dollar’s position. China has not yet been able to control all of the world’s gold mines and reserves, so why not take the opportunity to control as much as possible?

这让我想到下一个问题，如果区块链是一个底层的协议，那在区块链上面的协议栈里，还需要哪些关键的协议层？

This reminds me of the next question, if the block chain is a bottom-of-the-line agreement, what other key tiers of the agreement are needed in the box on the block chain?

现在还非常早期。目前这个阶段，我感觉有点像从互联网版的tcp／ip，进化到区块链版的tcp／ip，这么一个过程。我们其实是在往这个系统里面增加了一些新的状态信息。我们往互联网的系统里加入了id的追踪信息、加入了数据的追踪信息。之前tcp／ip 也用session来保持客户端ip的更多信息，但我们现在是直接在系统底层协议里，把更多的状态信息写进去了。

It's very early. At this stage, I feel a little bit like the process of moving from an Internet version of tcp/ip to a block chain version of tcp/ip. We're actually adding some new status information to the system. We're adding id tracking information to the Internet system and data tracking information. Previously, tcp/ip also used session to keep the client ip more information, but now we're writing more status information directly into the system's bottom protocol.

blockstack是一个很好的2层协议的例子。在原本1层的区块链协议上再加一层新的协议，就能产生更多的应用。这是未来的趋势。如果你看看OSI模型（开放式系统互联通信参考模型）设计的结构，它总共有7层协议。可能还会有更多。http协议之后变得有点复杂，所以人们就不再往上加新的协议层了。

Blockstack is a good example of a two-tier agreement. A new one on the original one-storey block chain agreement would produce more applications. This is the trend for the future. If you look at the structure of the OSI model (the Open System Interconnection Reference Model), there are seven tiers of protocol. There may be more.

我们未来肯定会看到更多像blockstack这样的产品。广告token、注意力token、预测市场token，这些可能不全是第1层的东西，他们可能是第2层，甚至可能是第3层的东西。这些都非常难，要付出很大的努力才能完成。

We're sure to see more products like Blockstack in the future. Advertising token, attention totoken, predicting the market token, these may not all be on the first floor, they may be on the second floor, or even on the third floor.

但作为区块链协议的开发者，最棒的一点是代币的激励机制。我看到很多在2013年进入比特币行业的开发者，他们很早就开了比特币相关业务的公司，然后公司最终做着做着失败了，关门了。在世界上任何其他行业和领域，你的公司关门了，失败就是失败了，但这些开发者虽然公司失败了，但因为他们很早就进入行业，可能公司关门了但他们向客户收费一直收取的是比特币，或者他们自己存了一堆比特币，你其实都不需要去研究ico，只要你比其他人能够更早接触比特币，你就能发财。这些开发者很多现在都非常有钱。过得很好。这就像，如果你是最早那批弄懂股票市场是怎么运作的人，不论你知不知道哪家公司股票会涨，只要你比其他人提前拥这些信息和知识，就能拿到很多收益。因为整个市场是在爆炸的。你是在一个竞争很小的蓝海市场里。

But, as developers of block-chain agreements, the best thing is the incentive for money. I see a lot of developers who entered the Bitcoin industry in 2013, who started their business in bitcoin very early, and then the company finally fails and closes. In any other industry or field in the world, your company closes and fails, but these developers, although they have failed, because they have entered the industry early, they may have closed, but they've been charging their customers with bitco, or they've kept up a bunch of bitco, and you don't actually have to study it, so as long as you get in touch with bitco earlier than anyone else, you're rich. Many of these developers are rich now. It's like, if you're the first to know how the stock market works, you know which shares are going up, and you get a lot of money as long as you get that information and knowledge ahead of everybody else. Because the whole market is in a small-competitive blue-sea market.

巴菲特曾经打过一个很出名的比喻，他说很多人其实是知道投机的坏处的，人们就像在参加一场灰姑娘的盛大派对，派对现场气氛非常火爆，各种美味的食物、香槟，跳舞的人，但每个人心里都知道这场派对到了12点会准时结束，所有的人都会显露原型，变回南瓜和老鼠。但大家都想尽情享受狂欢的每一秒，所以每个人都计划好在11点59分的时候从派对里撤退。但问题是：在场的所有人，没人有时钟，没有人知道现在到底是几点。

Buffett used to play a famous metaphor, saying that a lot of people actually knew the bad side of speculation, and that people were at a big Cinderella party, where the atmosphere was hot, all kinds of delicious food, champagne, and dancing people, but everyone knew that the party would end on time at 12 o'clock, and that everyone would show their prototypes and turn back into pumpkins and rats. But everyone wanted to enjoy every second of the party, so everybody planned to retreat from the party at 11.59. But the problem was that everyone there, no one, no one sometimes clocked, no one knew what time it was.

这看起来好像和现在的情况有点像，但我其实不同意用这个比喻来描述区块链现在正在发生的一切。现在很多人确实不懂比特币的价值，看不懂区块链的意义，只是单纯投机。如果你是真的相信比特币和区块链的价值，你是因为你觉得去中心化很重要才投资区块链，是真的信仰者，那可能最后能获得一个好结果，当然也有可能不能。但是我觉得从长远角度来看，区块链是会成功的。

This seems a bit like the situation now, but I don't really agree with this metaphor to describe what is happening in the block chain. Now, many people do not understand the value of bitcoin, the meaning of the block chain, but just speculation. If you really believe in bitcoin and block chain, you invest in the block chain because you think it's important to centralize, true believers, and it may end up with a good result, and certainly not. But in the long run, I think the block chain will succeed.

你可以对比下1999年的互联网泡沫。在泡沫发生的时候，我是亲身经历者。我记得在2000年的时候，街上的汽车很多都在保险杠上贴了一堆贴纸，上面写着：老天爷啊，请再给我一次泡沫吧，这次我知道应该怎么做了（笑）。所以，现在这个愿望实现了啊（观众大笑）！

You can compare the 1999 Internet bubble. I was a personal experience at the time of the bubble. I remember in 2000 a lot of cars in the streets put a bunch of stickers on their bumpers and it said, "Oh, my God, give me another bubble, and I know what to do this time." So now that's a wish.

但如果你是在1999年那个时间点，你知道泡沫正在发生，你知道这里面有很多虚假的估值最后会破灭，很多非理性的疯狂的东西。顺便说一下，99年那个泡沫要比现在这个泡沫大得太多了，那个泡沫峰值是1.7万亿美元，我们现在这个泡沫才总共1000亿美元。而且，99年的泡沫还跟一场很大的债务泡沫牵连在一起，有很多疯狂的事情。

But if you were at that point in 1999, you know that bubbles are happening, and you know that there are a lot of false valuations that end up falling apart, and a lot of irrational crazy things. By the way, that bubble in '99 was so much bigger than the current bubble, and that bubble peaked at $1.7 trillion, and we now have $100 billion. And that bubble in '99 was linked to a big debt bubble, and there are a lot of crazy things.

但在那个泡沫发生的过程里，你知道市场里会有很多垃圾公司垃圾项目，有pets.com 等等，当然我不是在挑这些项目的刺，后来这些项目有的也成功了，只是当时那个时间点是不对的。项目本身可能没问题。只是从投资者的角度来说，当时有很多不好的项目、很多不好的事情正在发生。但是那时也是 Google、亚马逊、eBay、Cragisits诞生的时候。所以即使是在当时，也有一大笔财富和价值正在被创造出来。

But in the course of that bubble, you know there's a lot of junk company junk projects in the market, pets.com, etc., and of course I'm not picking them, and some of them were successful, except that they were not right at that point in time. The project itself could be fine. From an investor's point of view, there were a lot of bad projects and a lot of bad things were happening. But it was also when Google, Amazon, eBay, Cragisits were born. So even then, a lot of wealth and value was being created.

然后，最近好像有个新闻说，贝佐斯已经是全球最富有的人？具体我记不太清楚，但是大概意思是说，贝佐斯的净资产超过了比尔盖茨，成为世界第一。

And then, recently, there seems to be a news that Bezos is already the richest man in the world? I don't remember exactly, but it's probably that Bezos' net assets outperformed Bill Gates and became the world's number one.

这个新闻，基本上它告诉了你，互联网这场革命已经完全超越了计算机革命，对吧？到现在已经差不多20年了？互联网取代pc的时间。可能接下来我们又要花上20年的时间，等中本聪的净资产超越贝佐斯的。但我认为这件事将来是会发生的。

This news story, basically, tells you that the revolution on the Internet has gone beyond the computer revolution completely, right? It's almost 20 years now? The Internet has replaced the pc. It may take us another 20 years, waiting for the middle-class net assets to go beyond Bezos. But I think this will happen in the future.

（完）

(concluded)

英文访谈视频：https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrSn3zx2GbM&t=0s&index=1&list=PLVBjZQTPTYk7SgE3McrPAe3kXSuNcErnS

Interview video in English: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Irsn3zx2GbM&t=0s&index=1&list=PLVBjZQTPTYK7Sge3McrPae3kXSunncErnS

本文由 @橙皮书 翻译发布于人人都是产品经理。未经许可，禁止转载。

This text is translated by @Orangebook and published by everyone as a product manager.

题图来自 Pixabay，基于 CC0 协议

The title is from Pixabay, based on the CC0 protocol.

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